Comments for Butterflies and Wheels http://www.butterfliesandwheels.org Discussing all the things Thu, 19 Sep 2019 16:32:05 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.4.19 Comment on Rules are rules by Sackbut /2019/rules-are-rules/#comment-2740165 Thu, 19 Sep 2019 16:32:05 +0000 /?p=111855#comment-2740165 Nullius, I’m not convinced. Detransitioners, desisters, predatory or opportunistic trans people, all get dismissed as being not “really” trans. That’s why Rule 4 was stated, to differentiate “real” trans/NB from “fake”. But if people are to be taken at their word, then lying is impossible.

Re Rule 3, I disagree here, too. I am male, but I am not “comfortable with my assigned gender” because I don’t believe I have an assigned gender, I think the concept is fatally flawed. Thus, I reject the label “cis”. If the definition were “you do not demand that people avoid referring to you using grammatically correct terms appropriate for your sex”, or some such, I might agree with it, but that isn’t what they want, is it?

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Comment on Rules are rules by Acolyte of Sagan /2019/rules-are-rules/#comment-2740164 Thu, 19 Sep 2019 16:23:51 +0000 /?p=111855#comment-2740164 Rule #2 is simply wrong. ‘Cis’ people are people who can accept that they are what they are.

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Comment on His mark X by Acolyte of Sagan /2019/his-mark-x/#comment-2740163 Thu, 19 Sep 2019 16:20:31 +0000 /?p=111851#comment-2740163 I suppose the egomaniac has ordered a 24hr. guard on his scribble to prevent it being defaced.

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Comment on Not actually glad to help by Acolyte of Sagan /2019/not-actually-glad-to-help/#comment-2740162 Thu, 19 Sep 2019 16:17:55 +0000 /?p=111853#comment-2740162 I wish Skeletor would clarify his ‘innate sense of gender’ comment, because I read it as meaning the innate sense of the word gender rather than an innate feeling of being a specific gender, the latter definition being covered by [t]he separate innate sense of being male or female is obviously more contentious.

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Comment on Rules are rules by iknklast /2019/rules-are-rules/#comment-2740161 Thu, 19 Sep 2019 16:16:36 +0000 /?p=111855#comment-2740161 Curious, that is because rule #1 is so difficult to defend rationally, so they need the other things to shut people up.

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Comment on Not actually glad to help by Ophelia Benson /2019/not-actually-glad-to-help/#comment-2740160 Thu, 19 Sep 2019 15:29:32 +0000 /?p=111853#comment-2740160 Skeletor @ 7 – there’s no such thing as “the innate sense that you’re male or female.” It’s a myth. Confusion about this is part of why Owen Jones and his friends can’t keep their stories straight.

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Comment on Rules are rules by Curious /2019/rules-are-rules/#comment-2740155 Thu, 19 Sep 2019 12:41:06 +0000 /?p=111855#comment-2740155 I am really confused over why we need anything more than rule #1

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Comment on Rules are rules by Kristjan /2019/rules-are-rules/#comment-2740153 Thu, 19 Sep 2019 09:34:19 +0000 /?p=111855#comment-2740153 Rules are to be stated and obeyed, not questioned, Ophielia.:)

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Comment on Rules are rules by Nullius in Verba /2019/rules-are-rules/#comment-2740152 Thu, 19 Sep 2019 05:47:49 +0000 /?p=111855#comment-2740152

Or 1 with 3, or 1 with 4.

Well, with 1:4, one can resolve the apparent problem by saying that anyone who claims a non-assigned gender is a genuine trans person.

1:3 can be resolved by saying that “cis” is not a gender. It’s kind of a weaselly resolution, but it works.

More stupidly, 1 & 2 are not mutually exclusive. That is, “cis” doesn’t mean that you are comfortable only with your assigned gender. So you could be comfortable with your assigned gender and claim to be lunagender (your gender only comes out at night). Because I’m comfortable at 78 degrees inside, but I’m happy at 72. Similarly, you could be “cis” and claim multiple genders (because what the fuck ever, you are Bullrog, and you have lots and lots of genders).

]]> Comment on Rules are rules by Artymorty /2019/rules-are-rules/#comment-2740151 Thu, 19 Sep 2019 02:56:21 +0000 /?p=111855#comment-2740151 The “rules” just so obviously don’t make any sense. What’s amazing is how many people who should absolutely know better — academic philosophers in particular — play along with this ridiculous game.

We’re living in such a bizarre time, aren’t we. Watching real life right now feels like when I’m reading the Handmaid’s Tale and I’m just waiting to get to the part at the end where it jumps to the future and everything’s gone back to normal and a bunch of academics are gathered at a conference to dissect how the hell everything went so wrong and society fucked up so badly. The back-to-normal future cannot come soon enough; let’s just get to that part already! (Right now I’m relying on faith (or some secular equivalent to the word) that such a back-to-normal future will come.)

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Comment on Not actually glad to help by Blood Knight in Sour Armor /2019/not-actually-glad-to-help/#comment-2740150 Thu, 19 Sep 2019 02:43:53 +0000 /?p=111853#comment-2740150 I got the impression that non-binary was just a bespoke gender that means whatever is convenient at the moment).

I.e. making Cpl. Cheery Littlebottom non-binary so they can cast a (presumed) male in a very definitely female role.

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Comment on Not actually glad to help by Sastra /2019/not-actually-glad-to-help/#comment-2740149 Thu, 19 Sep 2019 02:03:38 +0000 /?p=111853#comment-2740149 @Skeletor;

I’m not sure what “an innate sense that you’re male or female” is. There’s factual knowledge of *being* male or female, and being comfortable that you’ve got it right, but is that an “innate sense?” Wouldn’t it be learned?

If someone who truly cared nothing about gender stereotypes discovered they weren’t the sex they thought they were, they wouldn’t have to deal with readjusting an internal sense that got it wrong, would they? Or would it be assumed that they just somehow *knew*, deep down, the whole time, because of an innate sense?

I’m still unclear.

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Comment on Not actually glad to help by Skeletor /2019/not-actually-glad-to-help/#comment-2740148 Thu, 19 Sep 2019 01:32:34 +0000 /?p=111853#comment-2740148 Yeah, that guy is rude. I’m not defending his behavior.

I think non-binary is being used in two separate ways here. One refers to the innate sense that you’re male or female. The other to whether you conform to gender stereotypes.

I think everyone accepts that you can be a woman and not conform to female stereotypes, etc. Even if you’re very socially conservative and don’t like it, you know it happens.

The separate innate sense of being male or female is obviously more contentious. A lot of people seem to think if you more conform to another gender’s stereotypes then you’re that gender. Most of us don’t agree with that.

Others feel that it is a separate concern. If you buy into that, then you could be a biologically male who completely feels like a woman but is still into “guy stuff”. This is also disputed.

If you somehow embodied two genders at once, the woman inside you could be more into man stuff and the man inside you could be more into woman stuff. But you’re probably just claiming that to get attention for being super special.

Getting back to the main point, the two definitions of “non-binary” just lead to confusion. If you think it it refers to your true, innate gender, then you’re not going to agree that someone without a feeling of being neither male or female but who doesn’t adhere to gender stereotypes is non-binary in the way you mean it.

But, yeah, when you’re also stomping around saying everyone can have the label they want and it must be respected, then that doesn’t leave you much room to complain about people using labels differently.

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Comment on Not actually glad to help by Screechy Monkey /2019/not-actually-glad-to-help/#comment-2740147 Thu, 19 Sep 2019 01:29:40 +0000 /?p=111853#comment-2740147 Sackbut,

Were you watching “All of Me,” starring Steve Martin and Lily Tomlin?

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Comment on Rules are rules by Sastra /2019/rules-are-rules/#comment-2740146 Thu, 19 Sep 2019 01:12:42 +0000 /?p=111855#comment-2740146 I also have questions regarding definitions. Such as, the word “ gender.”

I just finished watching a video about parents raising their two children as “non-binary.” The names could fit either sex; they use “they” instead of “he” or “she;” they don’t let other people ( or possibly even the children) know if they’re boy or girl. The goal is to avoid stereotypes, to end up with adults who weren’t shaped to fit social preconceptions — who just are who they are.

Ah, I get it! What a great idea! No gender norms, no pressure to conform to expectations.

And then it’s like a needle scratched over a record: “ when they grow up, then, they can each decide if they want to be a boy, or a girl.”

How? Because they’ve learned boys are strong and tough, girls soft and sweet? Wtf. Wouldn’t it be “ when they grow up, they’ll realize that their being a boy or girl doesn’t limit them, or anyone else?”

It’s as if the concept of non-binary has a split personality.

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Comment on His mark X by Acolyte of Sagan /2019/his-mark-x/#comment-2740145 Thu, 19 Sep 2019 00:37:13 +0000 /?p=111851#comment-2740145 maddog, that final word is missing three letters.

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Comment on No obligation to be honest with the media by zackoz /2019/no-obligation-to-be-honest-with-the-media/#comment-2740144 Thu, 19 Sep 2019 00:35:14 +0000 /?p=111847#comment-2740144 “Hard to believe this guy is considering a run for US Senate.”

Not hard to believe at all. Just the Republicans’ kind of guy, I would think.

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Comment on Not actually glad to help by Sackbut /2019/not-actually-glad-to-help/#comment-2740143 Thu, 19 Sep 2019 00:31:47 +0000 /?p=111853#comment-2740143 I gave up trying to understand when a saw a video by a person who had a “male” side and a “female” side, but the “male” side was the more feminine and the “female” side was the more masculine.

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Comment on Not actually glad to help by Rob /2019/not-actually-glad-to-help/#comment-2740142 Wed, 18 Sep 2019 23:59:54 +0000 /?p=111853#comment-2740142

Now just a god damn minute. If the rule is that people are what they say they are, where does he get off replying that way?

He’s a man talking to a woman, and even more so, a woman he doesn’t like. So of course anything he’s says is totally right and proper, because he knows stuff a woman doesn’t know, especially one who’s old.

I really detest self-important entitled little gits. Especially when their reasoning is so fatuously incoherent.

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Comment on Not actually glad to help by Sastra /2019/not-actually-glad-to-help/#comment-2740141 Wed, 18 Sep 2019 23:58:27 +0000 /?p=111853#comment-2740141 Well, not wanting to remain “ignorant” on exactly what “ non-binary” means ( somehow neither Sam Smith nor Owen Jones has succeeded in enlightening me,) I trotted over to Wikipedia and looked up “Non-binary gender.”

It didn’t help, either.

I mean, I know how the explanation goes, but I can’t seem to create simple examples in my head so I can follow along. The interpretation eludes me.

”Non-binary is a spectrum of gender identities that are not exclusively masculine or exclusively feminine‍—‌identities that are outside the gender binary.”

(Okay, ‘Pat’ likes to read romance novels AND work on cars.)

”Non-binary people may identify as having two or more genders (being bigender or trigender);[3][4] having no gender (agender, nongendered, genderless, genderfree or neutrois); moving between genders or having a fluctuating gender identity (genderfluid);[5] being third gender or other-gendered (a category that includes those who do not place a name to their gender).[6]

(Umm ..’Pat’ likes to read romance novels while working on cars, or doesn’t like either, or sometimes likes one and not the other, or has a love/ hate relationship with both, or writes romances about car repair, and/ or green ideas sleep furiously within the passionate mechanics the mind of ‘Pat.’)

I got stuck in the first paragraph.

I need applications or I just can’t follow along.

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